Curse

stamenflicker · Dec 05, 2006, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Well, in spite of all my complaining I am still trying. I'm both a hypocrite and pathetic I suppose

My ritualitst is two missions from beating the game, and I'm anxious to get her there. I wondered if the following things have been tried:

Defiant Was Xinrae: Elite Spell. Hold Xinrae's ashes for up to 5 - 11 seconds. While you hold her ashes, enemy Spells that the caster and the caster's allies use against you are disabled for an additional 5 - 20 seconds.

If I send in a Rit with DwX and let her tank the mob for a few seconds (that's all she will last without a few decent defensive spells) you get a 20 second window to take down the eles before the damage kicks in again.

1. She could stand in a pile of traps as well for added damage
2. She could mimic out shadow form to last longer (but would that negate DwX?)
3. She could have SV thrown on her to drain energy and adrenaline
4. She could have SoJ/Reversal of Damage thrown on her for added beat down
5. She could get Unyeilding Aura tossed on her to prevent DP.

Basically the trick would be keeping her alive long enough to absorb the first cycle of spells tossed on her until the calvary arrives. Of course this could be done with a W/Rt or an A/Rt. but the high damage ele spells wouldn't be disabled quite as long. With UA tossed on her, it wouldn't matter so much if she died.

After they are disabled a good group should be able to time their Gaze well enough to disrupt a second round of spells if they couldn't kill the mob quick enough.

MelechRic · Dec 05, 2006, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by stamenflicker

Well, in spite of all my complaining I am still trying. I'm both a hypocrite and pathetic I suppose

My ritualitst is two missions from beating the game, and I'm anxious to get her there. I wondered if the following things have been tried:

Defiant Was Xinrae: Elite Spell. Hold Xinrae's ashes for up to 5 - 11 seconds. While you hold her ashes, enemy Spells that the caster and the caster's allies use against you are disabled for an additional 5 - 20 seconds.

If I send in a Rit with DwX and let her tank the mob for a few seconds (that's all she will last without a few decent defensive spells) you get a 20 second window to take down the eles before the damage kicks in again.

1. She could stand in a pile of traps as well for added damage
2. She could mimic out shadow form to last longer (but would that negate DwX?)
3. She could have SV thrown on her to drain energy and adrenaline
4. She could have SoJ/Reversal of Damage thrown on her for added beat down
5. She could get Unyeilding Aura tossed on her to prevent DP.

Basically the trick would be keeping her alive long enough to absorb the first cycle of spells tossed on her until the calvary arrives. Of course this could be done with a W/Rt or an A/Rt. but the high damage ele spells wouldn't be disabled quite as long. With UA tossed on her, it wouldn't matter so much if she died.

After they are disabled a good group should be able to time their Gaze well enough to disrupt a second round of spells if they couldn't kill the mob quick enough.

Actually I've thought about this. However, letting a Rit tank is a dicey proposition. You might want to look at Xinrae's Weapon. It does the same thing as the ashes, albeit for a shorter duration. However, you can cast it on your team's tank and really take some of the edge off the spike damage IFF the monster AI will cast against the tank.

The other thing I've thought about as a Rit is bringing a KD/condition team and augmented with spirits. Basically bring a team loaded with KD skills and some other degen conditions. Also bring Toxicity/Lacerate to speed degen and Earthbind to keep them on the ground.

1 Warrior for tanking.
1 Fire Ele for Meteor Storm or Earth Ele for Earthquake/Aftershock (assassin secondary if going Earth)
1 FC Mes/Ele with a Water AoE slow for keeping the mob together
2 Monks (bond/heal)
1 Rit Lord for Shelter,Union and Earthbind
1 Ranger for Toxicity/Lacerate, Apply Poison/Barbed arrows
1 BiP Necro for monks or Assassin for Ki spiking

This is just me thinking about the problem. I've never tried this build, and I don't know if it would even work. However, I'm tired of seeing so many MoF teams and their spam. Sometimes just taking a little risk will lead to a lot more fun.

Hengis · Dec 05, 2006, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Got an idea for a sort of build that I have not been able to test properly as not enough of my guild with the right professions have made their way to the end of the game yet.

Basics of the idea are:

Ele/Dervish tank with all earth armor enchants, obsidian flesh and mystic regeneration.

Bonder monks to throw loads more enchants on the Ele possibly including spell breaker.

Ranger with Symbiosis and max beast mastery = +150 health per enchantment.

In the area where they lay Famine, simply use Sympathetic Visage and Ancestors Visage and let their own Famine spirit kill them.

Once SV and AV are on the Ele, he can have around 3000 health, a monsterous amount of armour and +10 health regen all the time.

The Ranger can take famine in the other areas.

Of course, this all needs a VERY experienced Ele tank and is pretty much pure conjecture, as I have not even managed to kill the first group yet LOL

If anyone has the right team to try this, I woud like to hear how it works or how badly it fails LOL

lyra_song · Dec 05, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

The *current* AI can not adapt.

An adaptive AI *could* be written for a game like Guild Wars, using evolutionary programming techniques.

However, doing so would be a monumental effort, and is likely to produce unexpected behaviors. Consider Oblivion, which had to "dumb down" their AI when it started doing things they couldn't control or predict (whole villages getting into AI wars.)

How much howling do you think ANet would hear if they built an AI that learned from players? Let's say the AI started using a different monster mix based on past player choices -- people would get mighty grouchy if their cookie cutter group was suddenly rendered ineffective.

Economically, game companies have a difficult time justifying the sort of expense required for creating an advanced AI. Pretty graphics impress reviewers; smart monsters don't.

Are you kidding me? Grouchy would hardly be a start.

If the A.I. actually showed intelligence, im pretty sure the game would lose most its players.

It would be downright tragic.

Imagine if AI:

-All monsters have res sig.
-All monsters had primary/secondary skills.
-All monsters had 8 skills.
-Monsters spiked.
-Monsters comboed their skills together properly.
-Monsters pulled players into wards/wells.
-Monsters ran around corners to avoid arrows.
-Monsters focused their mesmers on your monks.
-Monsters used proper warrior hate.
-Monsters used proper caster hate.
-Caster monsters kited you into traps set by other ranger monsters.
-Mesmers shattered your enchantments right as Warriors adrenalines built up and ready to spike.

seriously :P

All A.I. has is brute strength and numbers. Nothing else going for them but that.

MelechRic · Dec 05, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Are you kidding me? Grouchy would hardly be a start.

If the A.I. actually showed intelligence, im pretty sure the game would lose most its players.

It would be downright tragic.

Imagine if AI:

-All monsters have res sig.
-All monsters had primary/secondary skills.
-All monsters had 8 skills.
-Monsters spiked.
-Monsters comboed their skills together properly.
-Monsters pulled players into wards/wells.
-Monsters ran around corners to avoid arrows.
-Monsters focused their mesmers on your monks.
-Monsters used proper warrior hate.
-Monsters used proper caster hate.
-Caster monsters kited you into traps set by other ranger monsters.
-Mesmers shattered your enchantments right as Warriors adrenalines built up and ready to spike.

seriously :P

All A.I. has is brute strength and numbers. Nothing else going for them but that.

Which all explains why such a small portion of the GW population does PvP... people don't like to be outsmarted. However, I'll grant you that human players, even when they are doing everything correctly, are still no match for a computer's reflexes and timing.

e.g.
My Jin interrupter is >>> a human interrupter in terms of speed and timing. It's just that she interrupts the wrong skills sometimes.

EDIT:
Just to be clear here... I'm not saying you can't beat the speed/timing of computer A.I. That is done every day in GW. What I'm saying is that people coming into an area like DoA can't rely on the same brute force approaches. They won't work because you don't have the margin of error in DoA that you have in other areas. You need strategy because that's what you as a human being are superior in versus the A.I.

Ninna · Dec 05, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

...especially since people start demanding they bring certain skills which are, more than likely, not Nightfall skills.

*cough* Meteor Shower *cough*

a valid point but every chapter has skills that groups may perceive as "must haves" -- doesnt mean you need to join those discerning groups

Plenty of groups beat Gate of Madness without Spoil Victor (Factions)
even tho SV helps alot at the end

I'm confident elementalists, without MShower, play in DOA

Clone · Dec 05, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Oh no, it's extremly doable.

But look at Shiro. He's a complete idiot. He goes and attacks the fully protected stance tank. And there's hundreds of posts of how difficult he is.

Now imagine Shiro that kites you. Then jumps in to spike your healer and retreats. Waits till you rez, or better yet, waits till the other monk uses rebirth. That very second he jumps in, kills both monks again, and runs away, kiting everyone.

Then he repeats that until you're dped out. If you try to attack him, he runs up to one of the shrines to agro more mobs. Not only that, but all 4 mobs now body block 3 casters, and kill them, then they all retreat.

And when everyone is at 60 dp, he starts running around, doing /laugh.

Or better yet, what if shiro actively attacked members in such manner to deplete first their soft rez, then kill only the players with hard rez, leaving the remaining 3 or 4 without healing, and with no way to rez?

You do not want smart AI.

Well, that depends on other factors as well. Shiro's total health in Imperial Sanctum is estimated to be 6300 according to guildwiki. Smarter isn't bad. Smarter and 10 times more powerful than the average player is where the problem starts.

lyra_song · Dec 05, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

Just to be clear here... I'm not saying you can't beat the speed/timing of computer A.I. That is done every day in GW. What I'm saying is that people coming into an area like DoA can't rely on the same brute force approaches. They won't work because you don't have the margin of error in DoA that you have in other areas. You need strategy because that's what you as a human being are superior in versus the A.I.

I remember doing the Ranger's profession quest in the desert, and getting chain interrupted with Cry of Frustration by all the floating purple things.

Omg that skill is soooooo appropriately titled.

It's true that the A.I has better timing/speed/skill monitoring.

I like to take advantage of it sometimes and "fake out", ie: Heal Sig, then cancel right away, they use cry but interrupt nothing, then you can use Heal sig while their cry is recharging.

-----------------

There was this time at Tomb Of Primieval Kings, before the B/P build was "standard".

I took my friends out and we did the mission.

we had no minion master, or even pets. we did a pretty mixed up warrior tank, ranger, nukers, monks, necros thingy.

we were doing very well with just 1 warrior tanking.

we didnt need an army of pets/minions because we all knew how to let the tank take all the aggro and not rush in.

we knew where the tank should stand so that he would body block all the monsters and keep the casters safe.

The casters knew to run if they got aggroed and run into the dust traps i set up in the backline of the group so the aht AOE would drive them away.

In a nutshell: We knew how to play our classes and we could beat it without needing a gimmick build.

Granted B/P is FASTER, its also pretty mindless.

Ninna · Dec 05, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

Which all explains why such a small portion of the GW population does PvP... people don't like to be outsmarted.

I dont agree with that - otherwise I would not like RL games like Chess

offtopic
the reason I dont like PVP is because I prefer Cooperative play to Competitive (yes I know GW is CORPG but thats not how I play GW

)

dpcash · Dec 05, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

The group I completed the city with had a person who started playing with nightfall.

Playing a monk even.

Had to buy some skills before we went.

Didn't even know what candy canes are.

Team play, cooperation, patience, willingness to learn. That is what determines who is leet down there.

Precisely!!!

I don't know how many times we wiped before successfully conquering Stygian Veil.

2 Trap Rangers (guildies)
2 Monk (Prot and Bond)
1 Rit Healer
1 SF/MS Ele
1 SS Necro (guildie)
1 AoB Dervish Tank/Puller

Prot monk dc'ed halfway thru and SS dc'ed whiled doing MAW and we still beat it.

No leet players here. But at least me and my guildies are hardcore players who have learned from playing the game, and from leet players like aohige.
We adapted this build from his guide.

Careful pulling and voice comms are really the keys here, though some have beaten it without Vent or TS.

From my experience so far in DoA, tactics and the right skills are far more important than using a cookie-cutter build. For instance: this could easily have beeen done with a aoe mesmer instead of the Ele; a third ranger instead of the tank; a para instead of prot monk; even a crit sin instead of the SS. Only the rangers are essential in this particular build as they do the bulk of the damage with traps.

Patience is also required as missions in the DoA take time, and overall goals like Rajah (1 of each gem) and weapons (25 of each gem) have to be considered long term goals.

Navaros · Dec 05, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

Which all explains why such a small portion of the GW population does PvP... people don't like to be outsmarted. However, I'll grant you that human players, even when they are doing everything correctly, are still no match for a computer's reflexes and timing.

I disagree with this. A small portion does PVP because people don't like waiting 1 - 3 hours to form a party for a "payoff" of 10 - 20 minutes of actual gameplay time before getting defeated and disbanding. And in the event of success, very very poor rewards even so, which do not come remotely close to justifying the time and effort spent doing all that.

The same exact problem now applies equally to the DoA situation.

I'm sure most players would love a smart AI that uses legitimate tactics and strategies to compete. The reason that is not done is likely not because "people wouldn't like it"; but rather because developing an AI like that would cost way too much time and resources.

The inherent problem with the "CORPG" concept is that most gamers are simply terrible players: that's reality. Expecting 8 random people from such a pool to be able to come together to form a competent party capable of performing highly complex tactics and teamwork is completely unrealistic. Therefore, only those in "elite" PVE guilds are going to be able to enjoy DoA. I suspect that the number of "elite" PVE guilds that exist is extremely low.

Much of the advice in this thread of "Keep trying and you will win in DoA" is moot because an individual player who gets it will still have to PUG it out with many other players who do not get it, therefore his understanding, experience and ability in DoA is rendered useless. Unless of course he is in one of those "elite" PVE guilds or has a friend's list full of "elite" players who will always play with him. But having those things in place is not going to be reality for the vast majority of Guild Wars players, I'd guess around 95% of so do not have that in place.

In conclusion, the "difficulty" in DoA is fundamentally in opposition to the reality of what a "CORPG" concept can handle and makes it extremely unfun to play - which is reason enough to nerf DoA into oblivion.

I'd like to see an official dev Poll like the skill hunter title one, only this one about: "Would you like DoA to be nerfed?"

Betcha over 90% of voters would vote "Yes" to nerfing DoA very, very much.

Avarre · Dec 05, 2006, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

Actually I've thought about this. However, letting a Rit tank is a dicey proposition. You might want to look at Xinrae's Weapon. It does the same thing as the ashes, albeit for a shorter duration. However, you can cast it on your team's tank and really take some of the edge off the spike damage IFF the monster AI will cast against the tank.

We did some testing on Xinrae's weapon in a run earlier, it does seem to cut off alot of the damage against the tank after the first barrage. You can effectively put it on any non-rt character, making it a less cumbersome elite than things like Spell Breaker.

It does require a very solid aggro though, but with warrior/eles with earth armor skills (that almost never die), it's easy to send them far enough ahead for that purpose.

Overall, seemed like a decent elite on a x/rt if you can ensure aggro.

Antheus · Dec 05, 2006, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

The inherent problem with the "CORPG" concept is that most gamers are simply terrible players: that's reality. Expecting 8 random people from such a pool to be able to come together to form a competent party capable of performing highly complex tactics and teamwork is completely unrealistic. Therefore, only those in "elite" PVE guilds are going to be able to enjoy DoA. I suspect that the number of "elite" PVE guilds that exist is extremely low.

5 completely random PUGs in a row. Completed two parts of malyx quest, other 3 made it at least over half of each area.

Not in a guild, not running with friends, just common sense at joining PUGs.

DoA - improve your gameplay, or don't do it.

GvG is also overpowered, those rank 1 guilds simply wipe guilds with rank 1200 guilds. Nerf highly-ranked guilds.

GW is competitive game (CORPG). Does it work? Oh yea. Look at sales, look at ratings, look at everything. Maybe some people are just playing the wrong game.

There's an alternative. A game, where all you need to do to be uber is spend 9-15 months of 8 hours a day in-game, and you'll win everything. And that game is getting 10 extra levels really soon.

lyra_song · Dec 05, 2006, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

I disagree with this. A small portion does PVP because people don't like waiting 1 - 3 hours to form a party for a "payoff" of 10 - 20 minutes of actual gameplay time before getting defeated and disbanding. And in the event of success, very very poor rewards even so, which do not come remotely close to justifying the time and effort spent doing all that.

The same exact problem now applies equally to the DoA situation.

I agree with that to an extent but thats not the only reason people don't PVP.

Some of my guildmates hate PvP because people there have ATTITUDES. They rage and piss on you if you RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up just a little bit, even more when they are on the opposing team.

Also some people can't handle the pressure that comes from people relying on you.

Same thing applies to DOA right now.

Quote:

I'm sure most players would love a smart AI that uses legitimate tactics and strategies to compete. The reason that is not done is likely not because "people wouldn't like it"; but rather because developing an AI like that would cost way too much time and resources.

Wheres the /sarcasm tag? Seriously. If the difficulty ramped up because of intelligence, this game would totally fail.

Quote:

The inherent problem with the "CORPG" concept is that most gamers are simply terrible players: that's reality. Expecting 8 random people from such a pool to be able to come together to form a competent party capable of performing highly complex tactics and teamwork is completely unrealistic. Therefore, only those in "elite" PVE guilds are going to be able to enjoy DoA. I suspect that the number of "elite" PVE guilds that exist is extremely low.

It's not even about being "elite", its about know how to simply PLAY THE GAME. Too many people cruise through the game without learning how to play it since its so easy.

They finally run into something that tests their skills and since they never developed properly, they just die.

Quote:

Much of the advice in this thread of "Keep trying and you will win in DoA" is moot because an individual player who gets it will still have to PUG it out with many other players who do not get it, therefore his understanding, experience and ability in DoA is rendered useless. Unless of course he is in one of those "elite" PVE guilds or has a friend's list full of "elite" players who will always play with him. But having those things in place is not going to be reality for the vast majority of Guild Wars players, I'd guess around 95% of so do not have that in place.

It's a valid point. The bad players will keep being bad and keep dying and hopefully QUIT playing that map. Only the ones who know what to do will remain.

Quote:

In conclusion, the "difficulty" in DoA is fundamentally in opposition to the reality of what a "CORPG" concept can handle and makes it extremely unfun to play - which is reason enough to nerf DoA into oblivion.

I'd like to see an official dev Poll like the skill hunter title one, only this one about: "Would you like DoA to be nerfed?"

Betcha over 90% of voters would vote "Yes" to nerfing DoA very, very much.

On the contrary, i think DOA is exactly what CORPG is all about.

A proper test of skills you and your party should have learned while playing the game.

Please dont nerf DOA.

Please make the rest of the game harder to match it

Ninna · Dec 05, 2006, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

I'd like to see an official dev Poll like the skill hunter title one, only this one about: "Would you like DoA to be nerfed?"

Betcha over 90% of voters would vote "Yes" to nerfing DoA very, very much.

its not a dev poll but GWOnline has a poll

Do you like the Domain of Anguish as it is?
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...d.php?t=433606
Yes....111....39.93%
No.....167....60.07%

theres also a thread over there called

The I love Domain of Anguish thread
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...d.php?t=433449

pappayaponta · Dec 05, 2006, 04:54 PM // 16:54

I Love the DoA. Seriously, GW really needed a hard place. If you don't want this a big challange, DONT PLAY IT! I mean, did you pay extra for Doa? Nope, it came as i FREE update. So stop complainining and leave DoA as it is so we who want a challange can have something fun to do.

-Murr

Fates · Dec 05, 2006, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

yada...yada...yada...
Betcha over 90% of voters would vote "Yes" to nerfing DoA very, very much.

If they nerfed it, it could no longer be called elite. Instead of "the elite mission area, DoA" they have to call it "just another mindless area where players dont have to think or know how to play, DoA."

MithranArkanere · Dec 05, 2006, 05:07 PM // 17:07

I do pay for everything, not only for the areas that come with the box. This is an only updated game. You can install it without the original CD's.

We pay for the original content and the updates, never forget this.

I don't complain about DoA, I don't care being hard too much slow time consuming boring areas, I complain that the only single Ritualsit hero is only available in there.

GloryFox · Dec 05, 2006, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

posted by Antheus
5 completely random PUGs in a row. Completed two parts of malyx quest, other 3 made it at least over half of each area.

Number of character who have beat Nightfall 6 of 9
(Warrior Necromancer Assassin Paragon Dervish Ranger - All skills unlocked or captured for PvE for these classes) My Ritualist, Monk, and Mesmer have not made it there yet. I feel bad for the casual Dervish or Sin player here they will have a difficult time getting a full set of Gems because of elite attitudes.

Number of total hours trying to find a competant group for DoA 27, Number of DoA runs that last longer than 1 hour, 2. Average Time it takes to find a group, 2 hours. Average time of death of party joined 5 minutes for total party wipe and I am usualy the last to die. Average team split after total party wipe 15 seconds.

Is it worth it for the average skilled player ....

You do the Math

BTW My best guess is that you are either running a Ele or a Monk

Sli Ander · Dec 05, 2006, 05:41 PM // 17:41

I consider myself to be a slightly above average player with a monk, not saying I'm spectacular or godly or anything. Not saying I'm leet, I just know whats good and what's bad when it comes to monking.

I think Lyra got it right when she mentioned that some people play through the game and simply manage to bypass learning anything about their classes. I got out of a tombs bp group and got invited by a warrior group the other day. My GL(necro) and I decided to go for it and see how good they were.
1)They didn't give me time to switch skills to be more effective for warriors(2nd time around, after quick test run)
2)They knew nothing of what to expect inside, nothing about popups etc.
3)They knew nothing about spiking, aggroing, or protecting the casters.

I lumped #3 together so it wouldn't be a long list. #1 was a big mistake because they didn't want the monk to leave. #2 is understandable but liveable(though I always do a bit of research before entering an area, so I know what skills to bring). #3 is just not knowing the basics, which is a big big problem.

The problem is probably the same for DoA. You're getting the good players(whether they only have Nightfall or not) and you're getting the ones that have somehow managed to bypass the learning curve of the whole game and therefore know nothing about how to play their class.

But that's just my two cents